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21 August 2008 @ 10:51 am
What is it about MMORPGs that I love them so much?  
I have been brooding on a long post about these games for a while now. Several of my friends don't quite understand why I'm into these games so much, and sometimes I have trouble understanding it myself. But let's face it: hobbies (whether it be MMORPGs, geocaching, larp, costume-making or tinkering with electronics) become more interesting when they are challenging and complicated.RPGs have always appealed to me because they are games that require more intelligence than they require hand-eye coordination and quick reflexes, and less strategy than real war- and strategy games. I may be smart, but my coordination is not all that good, and I have no strategic insight whatsoever. I'm not going to try to explain my fascination with video games in general, because it's just there and it always has been. Being a hero on a screen is fun. 

RPGs combine the fun of being the hero who saves the world with a character progression system that gives you the option to choose which powers to learn and make a hero that feels unique and yours. And MMORPGs have both these qualities and the added fun of playing with your friends and/or in a team.

Now I have tried quite a number of MMORPGs and this morning I saw a news article about a new boss in Final Fantasy XI that was so incredibly hard, that after a group of people had wailed away at it for almost 18 hours they still hadn't beaten it. It incited a horrendous rant in me about how impossible that game is, a rant which I have added at the end of this post at the *. [info]fub once remarked to me that a game is supposed to be fun and sometimes stories about MMORPGs really sound like work. He's right. Final Fantasy XI is hard work from the beginning to the end and that's why I will never be trying that again, no matter how much the pretty graphics and Square-Enix's quality try to lure me back.

I quit playing FFXI when World of Warcraft was released and I was so relieved to find that game to be much more fun and much less work. I made a sidetrip to Guildwars when Paco was really into it, and I met Plym and Theo there, the only friends I ever made over the internet, so that was good. But GW too was imho too much grind and not enough fun. I made a vow to myself to never grind again and I returned to WoW.

WoW kept me amused for a long time until our guild Nuts kind of fell apart and I started looking around for other games again. I strayed to Dungeons & Dragons Online (which was pretty much a really big let down on all accounts), I tried out Ryzom and met the people of The Second Sun, who took me out to try Vanguard too. DDO had a really small game world that had me bored with the same dungeons over and over within a week or two. Ryzom was the greatest innovative game I had ever seen with its class-less system and its creative crafting, but to play it I would have to break my no-grinding-vow and I just wasn't prepared to do that. Vanguard was pretty, but it just didn't seem to be able to keep my attention. I wanted to play with my friends again.

We started Crossfire and that brought me back to WoW. I was happy to see that this game just had all the things I was missing in those other just-not-good-enough-games; a huge game world and an easy way to travel around it, a working economy that makes crafting and trade with other players interesting and fun, the option to play casually by yourself for a while without having to spend hours to get anything done, and with Crossfire the fun of a challenging activity in a team. 

I have been playing WoW ever since the start, and I have no desire to do any real end-game raiding, because I think it would turn the game into work with the obligations and all, so I was getting a bit bored again. Then Age of Conan was released and I couldn't contain my curiosity. As far as I have been able to see now, AoC has all the good things WoW has, with as added plus the great graphics, and minus the working economy because there is something wrong with the crafting system, which I will explain at the **.

So that's my lengthy explanation about why I love MMORPGs so much. Any questions or remarks are welcome.


*I'm going to be frank here (and probably get my head bashed in, but wth) but everything about FFXI is scary and painful! Any mob in this game that be killed by yourself, doesn't yield any xp.

The only way to level up is to get a full group (and my god people are picky! No group would take my Warrior/Monk, because Ninja/Warriors were so much better tanks, but guess what? I don't have money coming out of my ass!) and find a safe place in an area that's much too dangerous for your character alone, then pull one much too dangerous mob at the time and kill it with the full group. If anyone made just one mistake, the mob (and/or the adds) would kill the entire group and people would get really upset at each other the because the experience penalty of death is just not funny and the res point is nowhere near.

And at later levels, it just keeps getting worse, because certain skills require very specific techniques (yes I played a rogue, and I spent three weeks in the altepa desert, having to explain how to position the party to make Sneak Attack and Backstab work properly) and specific enemies require people to perform their special attacks in a specific order to get the desired effect, which meant that once you had finally found a full party, another hour would be spent on argueing over which mobs to pull and which skills to use in which order.

Nothing in this game can be done without spending hours and hours of hard work, mostly in six man groups. I really wonder how the producers of that game could ever think they created something fun; I think it's torture!


**In AoC you can start harvesting resources in the wild after you have left the beginner's area, which means around level 20. The first big mistake the makers of the game made was the fact that everyone can learn to gather every kind of resources, which basically means that no one needs to buy resources. The only reason to buy them from other players is because you have money to spare and don't feel like going out there to gather the resources yourself. So there is virtually no demand for resources, and that makes the prices drop.

The second mistake they made was that you can't start crafting anything until you're level 40, which means that everyone who is under level 40 and has gathered resources has no use for them except save them up for later, or sell them, which makes the prices drop even further.

The third mistake was made with some decisions concerning item drops in the game. Originally items and equipment could be sold again after use, but that mistake was soon corrected. (I still think they should have given it a different name than soulbound to make it less obvious that they stole the idea and more fitting to Hyboria, but at least it's fixed.) Still, the drops are ill-managed. Some special monsters, like the bosses in the destiny quests, always drop the same item when killed. 

The demon in the level 30 destiny quest always drops a very cool magical shield. Which is cool, but not very well-thought through. Let me explain. Every character needs to kill this demon, so every character will receive this shield. But of all twelve classes, only two or three actually use shields, which means that the rest of them can't use it, and they will try to put the shield up for sale. But no one wants to buy it, because everyone gets it as a drop. See my point?

I still have hope that these mistakes will be fixed, because AoC is still a work-in-progress but it's a pretty serious flaw in the game economy.
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Jane Starz: Me - Frankie[info]janestarz on August 21st, 2008 10:48 am (UTC)
I recognize a lot of things from your story. Mostly, I think a game that lets you build something are the most fun. Whether this is a really powerful warrior by building stats, or building a city or even a civilization. Because winning is partially a process, and partially something that ends. If you win, and you beat the big guy, then there's nothing left to play for!

At times I return to Golden Oldies. Age of Empires, Heroes of Might and Magic. At times I get sucked into the Sims where I invent entire storylines for the sim families I control.
I just refuse to spend hundreds of euros on a subscription for a game that requires me to upgrade my pc. It's fine just as it is, after all, because it works for all those other games.

I guess I had a point there, but I forgot what it was about!
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 12:25 pm (UTC)
A recommendation for anyone who liked the Sims: Kudos. Only 7 pounds and there's a free demo to get the hang of it. And I'm sure you're going to like Spore too when it comes out next month.

You certainly have a point. Upgrading your PC is not something you want to do just to play one game. But if you were planning to upgrade anyway because the PC is getting old, the specs of a new game are a nice indication.
Coen de Moor[info]coen on August 21st, 2008 10:53 am (UTC)
What you like about MMORPGs is a lot like what I like about it.
My hand-eye coordination sucks, and my strategy is not very good either, so RPG is about the only gametype that I am good at. Another thing I could be good at is point-and click adventures, or puzzle adventures like Myst.
Of these three game types, RPGs appeal to me most, although I would like to play another good point and click adventure.

To me it's important to have a good balance between freedom and structure. I want freedom to choose which direction to travel, which quest to pick up first, but I always want a lot of plot.

MMORPGs usually offer a lot of freedom, but not a lot of plot. Single player RPGs sometimes have good plot (although the plot is seldom very original) but often have limited freedom.

Also, I like a nice balance between combat, puzzles, and social interaction. Some single player RPG's have too much combat to my liking. The problem with single player RPGs is that you can only have social interaction with NPCs, and interaction with NPCs is always limited. I did find some single player RPGs that offer very nice interaction with NPC's, sometimes with a nice sense of humor.
In MMORPGs you can have social interaction with other players, which offers far more possibilities. If you meet with the right kind of players, that is.

I have tried a lot of free MMORPGs so far, and some are nice. But where they offer a lot of freedom, they offer hardly any plot. Quests tend to be all the same, and very repitive.
I have played only one payed MMORPG, and that is WoW, and Wow has good very good quests. Some of them are simple "kill 15 of this and 5 of that" but some quests have a real storyline. But of course, there is never so much plot and storyline as some single player RPG have.
I don't like the graphic part of WoW, but I love most of everything else about it.

I am now going to play NeverwinterNights II. A single player RPG. Right now, I want to play a game with a real plot.

As for grinding: I feel the same way about it as you do.
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 12:07 pm (UTC)
Freedom! Good point. Freedom is the first thing I miss when I go back to a normal RPG. The plot of a game can sometimes push you to the point of suffocation.

(An older single player game with lots of freedom you might enjoy is Daggerfall. It has the freedom of an MMORPG with randomly generated dungeons, but it's pretty old, so the graphics are a little scary and square.)

Neverwinter Nights is one of the best RPGs I know, so have fun. Most free MMORPGs don't offer a lot of plot, which is a shame but understandable. Quality is expensive these days, and I have the luxury to afford it.

Another free game that offers quality is Guildwars. It's not completely free, but it has no monthly fee. Guildwars Nightfall is definately worth a try.

I digress. Thanks for commenting. Freedom is a really nice thing to have in a game.
glimworm[info]glimworm on August 21st, 2008 11:03 am (UTC)
Talking about MMORPG's, have you ever been into the spiritual predecessors of the MMORPG genre, the MUD or Multi-User-dungeon, an online world which was text-based and could be played for free from any computer with an internet connection?
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 11:16 am (UTC)
Yes, I am familiar with MUDs but the lack of graphics is a setback for a person with a very visual memory like myself. I'm not good with walls of text, so I never got very good at it. Remco and his friends have spent a far longer time in MUDs than I have. But I used to love those games and I drew my own maps on grid paper.

My favourite single player RPG used to be Daggerfall. It had randomly generated dungeons and a 3D map. Morrowind had better graphics ofc, but I missed the randomness and the 3D map a lot.
Coen de Moor[info]coen on August 21st, 2008 12:05 pm (UTC)
I did some googling on Daggerfall. Seems like a very interesting game. I'd like to try it. But it seems it is not for sale anywhere.
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 12:08 pm (UTC)
I think I should still have it somewhere...
Coen de Moor[info]coen on August 21st, 2008 12:16 pm (UTC)
I found a place to download it. I know it's illegal, but since it's not for sale anyway, I don't think a lot of people will be harmed if I download it.
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 12:20 pm (UTC)
Yup. Give it a try. It has more freedom than any other single player game I ever saw. Hard to decide what to do at the beginning.
(Anonymous) on August 21st, 2008 12:23 pm (UTC)
I'd say leave Daggerfall and Morrowind be and skip directly to its sequel, the unrivalled Oblivion.

--Smokey
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 12:27 pm (UTC)
Nope, Morrowind was fun but it didn't have that amazing random dungeon generator nor the 3D maps. And neither does Oblivion. Plus the latter needs a rather buff PC to play. And I personally think it was rather boring compared to Daggerfall and Morrowind.
kainelslor[info]kainelslor on August 21st, 2008 02:44 pm (UTC)
I thought the Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion games all had something wrong with them. Daggerfall was buggy as hell. Morrowind had to much freedom and no drive for the character to start doing anything but some random killing. And Oblivion had nice graphics but the engine was way to heavy for most of the computer systems on the market at that moment. Most of if was due to simple crappy programming.

and about Grinding. As far as I've seen WoW is probably the most grind-dependend MMO out there. You need to grind for almost everything (money, reputation, mark of honors) and not forgetting the endless quests of killing 20 of those, collecting 40 of this, getting 50 of that.. etc.

Don't get me wrong I had loads of fun with WoW but in the end
it was my online friends that kept me playing the game and not the quests or the "way to happy and toony" graphics

I like AoC but I still look for something that combines my online Neverwinternights experience with the playability of WoW. For now my eyes are fixed on Heroes Journey. (Even Bioware has taken up a license for the Heroes engine ^_^)
Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 03:01 pm (UTC)
That depends on your definition of grind of course. I don't consider most quests to be a grind. Killing 20 mobs is easy enough to do and not overly boring. With my protpally, who is notoriously slow, a kill or three takes just a minute. And time can be easily monitored when you're using a 30second buff. Grinding, imho is killing the same mobs over and over for hours on end, waiting for their respawn and killing them again, without any storyline or quest attached to it.

I made a vow never to grind again and, except for the bog lords in Zangarmarsh, I haven't ground anything since. Which means yes, I have no reputation with any faction whatsoever and no marks of honor. But I'm by no means poor and I've had a lot of fun.
Coen de Moor[info]coen on August 21st, 2008 03:51 pm (UTC)
I think grinding is what we experience as grinding. I had one quest in Wow where I had to kill about 60 of the same monsters before one dropped the one item that I needed for my quest. I experienced that as frustrating and grinding.
Apart from that, there was nothing in WoW that I really experienced as grinding.
Simone[info]fyrane on August 21st, 2008 05:34 pm (UTC)
wow, another person on this side of the world that has experienced the horrors of FFXI!
Used to play a Mithra white mage there. And the grind is hellish. Always tried to get myself into a Japanese group, but boy.. were they picky. Always had to explain that I was NOT american with the silly translator thing and some basic Japanese learnt from the intarwebz.
Compared to FFXI, the WoW grind is.. easy! If you know where the quests are, it goes fast as hell. Plus, almost (if not all) classes can solo decently enough to get exp at a reasonable rate.
I do miss the cuteness that came with FFXI, though.

Conan has been something of a let down for me for exactly the reasons you describe in the ** section. Also, apart from the character creation system, there is not much individuality. The monsters don't drop interesting loot, and the crafting system doesn't provide interesting things to replace that problem.
I really hope they will fix this issue, as I dont see any other interesting MMORPG's coming out any time soon.


Nathreee[info]nathreee on August 21st, 2008 06:18 pm (UTC)
/hugs to make the bad FFXI dreams go away.